Ok, I Give UP! I'll Talk About Cheney's Hunting Accident!
This is a response I left on another blog today. It got so detailed and time-consuming that I decided to bring it over here at the same time.
It goes like this.........
Wow.
Please don't get too upset. I love Liberals and am myself left of Liberal, but I have to address your rather haughtily expressed errors.
Yours is a perfect example of the multitude of well-meaning, outraged and totally misinformed attacks on Cheney that I have seen over the last few days.
Have you ever hunted upland game birds?
Ever patterned a shotgun?
While some of what you wrote may make SOME sense.....your statement that the distance between Cheney and Whittington was "ten feet" marks you as being in total darkness about shotgun ballistics.
At ten feet the pattern of a shotgun will have a diameter of four or five inches (yes, that includes the 28 Gauge shotgun).
The premier quail hunting load for the 28 gauge is the Winchester Super-X that carries a full ounce of size 7.5 lead shot pellets. That's about 350 round lead pellets moving at over 1200 feet per second. And at ten feet they are bunched tightly together in a round mass with a diameter of about four inches.
This is a deadly and densely packed cluster of fast-moving lead.....almost like a huge bullet.
That means that at ten feet it is so concentrated and powerful that it would either have missed or done traumatic damage (like almost entirely severing a limb or killing the victim immediately with a direct hit in the torso).
I haven't heard an official statement as to exactly how many pellets actually HIT Whittington, but I'd guess from the estimates I've seen (and from looking at his face and neck) that he was caught by the crescent-shaped edge of that round shot pattern of pellets in excess of three feet in diameter.....meaning 60 to 90 feet is a perfectly reasonable distance estimate depending on the choke of that particular barrel of that particular shotgun.
I'd also guess he was hit with fewer than 50 pellets (one doctor's puzzling and bizarre estimate was "5 to less than 150,") and it appears that mine is as good a guess as any.
Generally in a high quality 28 gauge under/over designed for hunting, the lower barrel (which is usually fired first) is a fairly open choke (between improved cylinder and modified). This makes for a larger pattern for closer birds.
Remember, we are talking about a high quality hunting gun.....not a skeet gun. There is a significant difference in the chokes.....skeet is wide open (which could account for results on that goofy film that has been going around the internet).
The upper barrel (which is usually fired second) is choked a bit tighter (between modified and full). This makes for a smaller pattern to more effectively kill birds that are a little farther away. Maximum range for sure kills on quail is about 40 yards.
These barrels can be selected to fire either barrel first by choice. Penetration, of course, is the same with either barrel--only the diameter of the pattern changes.
At 20 to 30 yards (60 to 90 feet) this load and the more open choke would be consistent with Whittington's wounds if the crescent-shaped edge of that large round pattern hit him coming from the side and slightly to his front (he was turned almost so his right side was toward Cheney).
As for penetration, the Winchester Super-X mentioned earlier will penetrate feathers and tissue to get to the vital areas of quail at up to about 40 yards.
There is a bogus video being circulated on the internet where they used ammunition that would not penetrate a plucked chicken (no, I'm not kidding, these clowns were actually shooting at a plucked chicken) at 30 yards.....and that means bad (old or non-hunting) ammunition or sloppy measurement of distance.
You are also misinformed about hunting safety routines. Hunters are not all "Bubbas," as you seem to think. Maybe you should check with some that are better informed.
Whittington was at fault when he rejoined the hunting party without communicating that he was doing so.....and thus he bears a large portion of the blame for this accident.
He was right to apologize, because IF he had simply called out to Cheney that he was coming back....this unfortunate accident probably would never have happened.
He was certainly "first cause" and he has rightly apologized.
It's all over.....case closed.
Cheney has come out of a firestorm of thousands of ill-informed and far-fetched moonbat attacks and is now vindicated.
How screechy, stupid, unattractive and crazy does that make Liberals look?
Meanwhile, many other critically important issues have been forgotten in the rush to join the mob to lynch Cheney.
As to your other points....
Yes, those good old boys may have had a couple of beers.
But we don't know that.
Yes, they may cheat on their wives.
But we don't know that either....and, it's really none of our business.
Somehow, trying to damn a war criminal for having a minor hunting accident strikes me as being very close to the ultimate silliness.
And Liberals really can't afford to indulge themselves in the silliness area.
Let's get back to important issues.
It goes like this.........
Wow.
Please don't get too upset. I love Liberals and am myself left of Liberal, but I have to address your rather haughtily expressed errors.
Yours is a perfect example of the multitude of well-meaning, outraged and totally misinformed attacks on Cheney that I have seen over the last few days.
Have you ever hunted upland game birds?
Ever patterned a shotgun?
While some of what you wrote may make SOME sense.....your statement that the distance between Cheney and Whittington was "ten feet" marks you as being in total darkness about shotgun ballistics.
At ten feet the pattern of a shotgun will have a diameter of four or five inches (yes, that includes the 28 Gauge shotgun).
The premier quail hunting load for the 28 gauge is the Winchester Super-X that carries a full ounce of size 7.5 lead shot pellets. That's about 350 round lead pellets moving at over 1200 feet per second. And at ten feet they are bunched tightly together in a round mass with a diameter of about four inches.
This is a deadly and densely packed cluster of fast-moving lead.....almost like a huge bullet.
That means that at ten feet it is so concentrated and powerful that it would either have missed or done traumatic damage (like almost entirely severing a limb or killing the victim immediately with a direct hit in the torso).
I haven't heard an official statement as to exactly how many pellets actually HIT Whittington, but I'd guess from the estimates I've seen (and from looking at his face and neck) that he was caught by the crescent-shaped edge of that round shot pattern of pellets in excess of three feet in diameter.....meaning 60 to 90 feet is a perfectly reasonable distance estimate depending on the choke of that particular barrel of that particular shotgun.
I'd also guess he was hit with fewer than 50 pellets (one doctor's puzzling and bizarre estimate was "5 to less than 150,") and it appears that mine is as good a guess as any.
Generally in a high quality 28 gauge under/over designed for hunting, the lower barrel (which is usually fired first) is a fairly open choke (between improved cylinder and modified). This makes for a larger pattern for closer birds.
Remember, we are talking about a high quality hunting gun.....not a skeet gun. There is a significant difference in the chokes.....skeet is wide open (which could account for results on that goofy film that has been going around the internet).
The upper barrel (which is usually fired second) is choked a bit tighter (between modified and full). This makes for a smaller pattern to more effectively kill birds that are a little farther away. Maximum range for sure kills on quail is about 40 yards.
These barrels can be selected to fire either barrel first by choice. Penetration, of course, is the same with either barrel--only the diameter of the pattern changes.
At 20 to 30 yards (60 to 90 feet) this load and the more open choke would be consistent with Whittington's wounds if the crescent-shaped edge of that large round pattern hit him coming from the side and slightly to his front (he was turned almost so his right side was toward Cheney).
As for penetration, the Winchester Super-X mentioned earlier will penetrate feathers and tissue to get to the vital areas of quail at up to about 40 yards.
There is a bogus video being circulated on the internet where they used ammunition that would not penetrate a plucked chicken (no, I'm not kidding, these clowns were actually shooting at a plucked chicken) at 30 yards.....and that means bad (old or non-hunting) ammunition or sloppy measurement of distance.
You are also misinformed about hunting safety routines. Hunters are not all "Bubbas," as you seem to think. Maybe you should check with some that are better informed.
Whittington was at fault when he rejoined the hunting party without communicating that he was doing so.....and thus he bears a large portion of the blame for this accident.
He was right to apologize, because IF he had simply called out to Cheney that he was coming back....this unfortunate accident probably would never have happened.
He was certainly "first cause" and he has rightly apologized.
It's all over.....case closed.
Cheney has come out of a firestorm of thousands of ill-informed and far-fetched moonbat attacks and is now vindicated.
How screechy, stupid, unattractive and crazy does that make Liberals look?
Meanwhile, many other critically important issues have been forgotten in the rush to join the mob to lynch Cheney.
As to your other points....
Yes, those good old boys may have had a couple of beers.
But we don't know that.
Yes, they may cheat on their wives.
But we don't know that either....and, it's really none of our business.
Somehow, trying to damn a war criminal for having a minor hunting accident strikes me as being very close to the ultimate silliness.
And Liberals really can't afford to indulge themselves in the silliness area.
Let's get back to important issues.
posted by Wadena | 11:33 AM
16 Comments:
Wadena,
I honestly don't have much of an opinion on this, and other than some snickering here and there about a few things, I really have not weighed in because I have to admit, I know nothing about hunting. I grew up in a suburb, metro NY, with no exposure to what you are writing about. I believe you though. I really don't know. My speculations have dealt more with the press and the way the story was handled, but again, there's not much that we can say on that. I admitted even on my own blog that part of me just despises Cheney so much that I could not be counted on for much objectivity. I just knew little about the specifics, and much less about ballistics!
And as I've suggested, it has also to do with fatigue on the liberal democrat side with years of hearing about blue dresses and nonsense. I think we were just salivating for something to pin onto Teflon Dick. Do I think it makes us look screechy? well, maybe. But we look screechy a lot of times. We are highly critical, but often are unable to offer practical solutions.
I am cranky after a week of contradictions: people that talk about free speech telling me to censor. People that say we should discuss, telling me to delete or they will boycott me. "Strong empowered women' telling me I should defend them. Attempts to explore a variety of positions when it just seems to end up in a testosterone party...I am beginning to wonder why I bother. So I can appreciate your frustration on these 'ballistics' experts obsessing about Cheney when there are people being murdered in Africa, global poverty, hunger, people that dissappear, torture... etc. I guess we are trash minded for the most part, eh?
To delete or not to delete, that is the question.
I deleted one already here because it was gibberish.
I'll suffer slings and arrows....but not gibberish.
You've had a tough week, being sick and all.....and then all that criticism and whining from people you thought were fairly sane....
Lily, you need to buy a shotgun.
I'd skip the 28 gauge and go directly to the 12 gauge if I were you.
Stick with number six shot for household use and 00 Buck for serious social confrontations with dangerous bloggers.
It gives new meaning to the word "delete."
(Cheshire smile)
Hi, Wadena the puddytat!
Thought I would wander over, and lo and behold, I find you've posted your comment to my post yesterday! I apologize if I got up your nose so bad, but in the interest of full disclosure, shouldn't you at least reference what you were commenting to? Not that I'm trying to stir the bucket (okay, well maybe I am a little), but please rest assured I enjoy and welcome all comments, whether agreeing with me or not. I think debate is healthy, and by all means please come on back over to Baja when you get a chance. I've seen your comments around on other blogs, and believe you to be a principled, passionate person -- and I love reasoned and strongly opinionated folks.
Oh, and hi, lily...hope you're feeling better, dear.
Let's all row the boat together, and get these criminals out of OUR government.
best wishes, w,
*mel
You know.....I lost track of you, so I was hoping you'd show up.
I searched for you for about an hour today and couldn't find you again.
I did find three more people who think it was ten feet......and a bunch more who also think it was very close.
There's even bogus tests on film.
Hooray!
So, after a lot of research.....the post has changed a lot from what's on your site. I've actually been adding and editing all day.
Guess I'll go see if you got any comments other than mine.
Thanks for getting me started.
The Last Time Cheney Flew a Fighter Jet
Thanks, Pol.....I think.
You know, I've heard 100 feet, I've heard 100 yards...it's entirely possible there is some sloppy reporting here. You described a 6' pattern, I said 10', and admit that's there's a stupid mistake on my part -- I should have said 10 yards; three times what I said originally, but not anywhere near 100 feet, or 30 yards, or a hundred yards. I'm not a ballistics expert, but I can picture a football field -- I used to play some. And I'll amend my post at the end (to preserve continuity)
I spoke of a diagram that was shown on network; either CBS or ABS news, and will see if I can find it online...wish me luck! A lot of the published information has been having a bad habit of vanishing, but I love nothing better than a good 'net research project. My recall of the diagram was indeed a very tight grouped pattern centered about four inches below where a dress tie's knot would be, from the glance I got at it the dark cluster looked to be about as big across as my palm, and the scatter around it was fairly sparce. Tell the truth, I'd love to see it again myself, another reason I'll enjoy trying to track it down.
I do think the ballistics are important, but I'd be out of line if I didn't reiterate my basic premise: had everybody involved reported and handled the situation in an aboveboard manner, we wouldn't even be wasting our time -- or having to have this debate. We have a Republican Congress, and now a Supreme Court biased to the power of the Executive. If I seem to be grasping at straws at this point, rest assured I am. I repeat myself in saying they had to get Capone on tax evasion; I don't think it is too much to hold the officials in this country to the same sort of scrutiny any other hunter would live under. High office and influence does not put one above the law, and these fellas lie and hide when the truth and openess would serve them better.
I'll let you know what I come up with in my research...and I'm glad to call us on the same side in one important point; the rule of law.
mbmel
Well, here's the deal...the best info that's out there suggests that the TxDPW report, and the diagram I saw on television are incorrect.
I agree with you that what is now available is downgraded and difficult to determine anything from. The version I saw on TV was quite clear, and even in the poor quality online versions, my description of what I remember seeing hold up to the extent of the placement of the main cluster on the profile view, about centered on the top of the breastbone.
The report, however, and the diagrams, are in serious conflict with Cheney's, Whittington's, and the sheriff's versions of the accident -- to put it simply, it's a confusion of your left and my right.
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-usdiag0217,0,7292010.story?coll=ny-leadnationalnews-headlines
I'm headed to bed...it's late at night in Seattle. And I'm leaving this debate with my initial, and to me, most important point. If there was nothing to hide, why did they drag their feet and hide info for days?
It ain't the hunting; it's the lying.
They dragged their feet to make sure they had all their bases covered....because they knew the moonbat firestorm would come.
Good morning!!!
There is good news. Tests have been done!!!
Tests that are unintentionally funny.
Liberals shooting at a turkey!
Liberals shooting at a pig!
Is there symbolism here?
(Turkey and pig were already dead.....no animals were harmed in these tests....tenderized maybe.)
But melons gave their lives and those melons died bravely in this testing.....BTW a melon shot at 15 feet was blown to smithereens (not a good sign for the likelyhood of your 10 foot theory).
The Conservative testing crew shot at a ..... yes, a CHICKEN (was Whittington a chicken hawk?).
(Did he dodge his war like Bush and Cheney dodged theirs?)
Oh well, much fun here.
:D
BTW, I know you said the distance of the shooting was 10 feet, but I never said anything about six feet, I said 60 to 90 feet, which is correct.
Now you want to change to ten YARDS instead of ten feet, but I can assure you that at ten yards that blast would have taken Whittington's face off and disfigured him for life....IF it didn't kill him.
Your Bubbas and your gun experience are failing you here.
And yes, we ARE on the same side as far as Cheney the war criminal goes......but we are on opposite sides when it comes to staying with reality as far as ballistics are concerned.
(Cheshire smile)
Dear Angry,
You are obviously another of the angry and pseudo-expert shopping mall hunters who are embarrassing themselves in herds all over the internet.
Almost NOBODY wears earplugs when hunting, but those who do wear earplugs that allow you to hear conversation normally but close up at the blast of a gun.
They work based on air pressure.
When you leave a hunting party it is your responsibility to advise them when you come back.....that's just common sense.
Blame is shared equally in this current case. Whittington has apologized. Cheney has taken responsibility for shooting Whittington.
However, you won't see Cheney apologizing to Whittington, because Whittington screwed up and was first cause of the whole incident.
Whittington popped up out of a gully with no warning and caught some lead. If he had communicated, it wouldn't have happened.
They both know it....why is it so difficult for the non-hunters to figure it out?
***Quoting directly from your first response to my post (the one you simutaneously posted here, and have since amended):
Any way you look at it.....this is a deadly and densely packed cluster of fast-moving lead.
That means that at six feet it is so small and powerful that it would either have missed or done traumatic damage (like almost entirely severing a limb or killing the victim immediately with a direct hit in the torso).
***This, of course shows you did in fact say something about "six feet", and while editing one's own blog is certainly one's perogative, doing so and claiming that it never said what it did...That's why when I edited, I did so by adding an editor's note, while letting my error stand.
This would be about those 'above-board' actions I like so much.
I think we have spent about an entire day...longer than the original cover-up, nit-picking the thing, and it still comes down to this -- refusing to see the county sheriff or his deputy Saturday night are not the actions of an honest person. I bet everybody pulled over for DWI wishes they had the good fortune of an entire evening and a good night's sleep in order to make sure they had all their bases covered--and all their stories somewhat straight.
And my bubbas? Didn't necessarily learn all the hunting club protocol or go out in "parties". They were too busy going up the hill out back the house to shoot a varmit fer Mama to cook for dinner while they did their homework. I was lucky; at least my folks could afford to buy most of our vittles in town, although we all did grow a big garden, and the outhouse we used when I was a toddler on the other side of the garden is still there!
I doubt Cheney, or anybody else in that "party" ever had to spend several summer weekends out in the sticks cutting firewood so they didn't freeze their hindsides off. Coming from much more rarified backgrounds may be why they feel themselves above those pesky, timely legal processes normal mortals operate under. And apparently honesty is in the eye of the beholder.
Sign me
One of the (proud) Unwashed Moonbat Masses
Yes....let's see.....you bet, you doubt, you got yer troubles, had to shoot varmits fer supper.....and yes, Cheney's a rich and disgusting bad guy.....but the fact is this:
All that you can come up with about the shooting accident are wishful bets and doubts and cynical nasty accusations--that are spawned by desperation and this terrible need to nail Cheney.
See.....what you and others have been doing doesn't hurt Cheney a bit.....but it does hurt you and make your group look extremely silly.
But it is certainly your choice to make.
It's been interesting hunting up the facts on the ballistics, anyhow.
Thanks for getting me going on it.
You are more than welcome; glad you enjoyed your ballistics field day.
No need for pity on your part for my somewhat less than pampered upbringing -- although pity many times seems to express contempt. And I'm the haughty one?
But that's okay; being silly in the opinion of someone who's spent the last 26 hours researching a tangent after chastising me for being off topic and ignoring THE REAL ISSUES? Hard to get insulted.
Nothing but love for ya!
Sign me
The Silly Moonbat - and fly me to the moon
Well, I was pushed into joining the silliness because I got almost ZERO response to any issue but Cheney.
Lacking that, I joined in to provide some badly needed expertise.
I had fun, too.
:)
And I'm back on important issues now (my shampoo).
:)
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Post a Comment
Subscribe to Post Comments [Atom]
<< Home